Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Technical stuff specific to the Raptor 650
Aussiejoe
On the Road
Posts: 228
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Been thanked: 4 times

Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by Aussiejoe »

Hey all!!! Can anyone give me the specifics of what Cagiva does to the SV650 engine to get the extra horsepower out of it? I want to modify my engine but don't want to undo anything Cagiva has already done! I have a carby model and all I know is that there have been intake and exhaust mods done, but what does that exactly entail?

What I'm intending to do:
Pod Air Filters
Carby Kit
Re-jet
Exhaust (not sure if I should go 2 into 1 or keep original headers)
Gen 2 cam swap
(maybe) Ignition advanced 4 degrees

Any advice in these areas would be greatly appreciated.
Does anyone know if the raptor has the 2nd/3rd gear ignition retardation like the standard SV650 does?
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

Cagiva bought stock SV650 lumps any power gains come from the free er flowing exhaust. The airbox is stock SV, contrary to some of the early road test reports, the thou got engine mods for midrange the 650 never got touched, IVe been right through the carbs and they are as stock SV650.

"Pod Air Filters",
probably a really bad idea, the air box was very well designed by clever men over 1,000s of hours. You will open a big jar of worms needing many hours of jet changes to see any or maybe no improvement. Good if you like a lot of backfiring and the smell of unburned fuel though.

"Carby Kit"
, Dont bother unless fitting flat slide carbs or big exhaust changes.

"Re-jet",
maybe one size up on the main jet, goodbye fuel economy. I got a few extra ponies without any re-jetting. The Stoichiometric balance is good with stock carbs even after a cam swap, changing compression ratio might need a rejet, havent done this yet. There is a little scope from a richer main jet but I live in the highlands and petrol pumps are a long way apart.

"Exhaust (not sure if I should go 2 into 1 or keep original headers),"
the Cagiva 2 into 2 is where the stock SV lump gets any power gains.
I have std cans, after market will sound better and maybe gain a HP or two with a bigger main jet. Cheaper to send the filth a postcard with your intended hooning routes though.

Gen 2 cam swap,
definitely works, Ive done it and got Dyno time showing a real gain at the top end of around 2-4 HP around 5- 7 K rpm where its useful, also gets rid of the 2 C50s running hard sound and replaces it with much fruitier tone. Most bang per £.

"(maybe) Ignition advanced 4 degrees,"


If you understand ignition timing this is easy, pull the LHS genny cover look at the ignition trigger plate, stretch the holes with a dremmel to give a bit more advance, most noticeable at lower revs where there is a Tad more grunt, free HP. The offset woodruff key for the genny rotor is a tax on the ignorant, also has the side benefit of ruining the valve timing marks which you will need if doing the cam swap..

AFAIK the Rap has the same 2nd 3rd retard thing , I have left this stock since I do use the bike in town and like the easy manners, on the open road 2nd and 3rd dont get used very much, if i was going for 1/4 mile times I might delete it.

My motor now has 45k on it , I did the cam swap and timing mods around 30K ago, still going strong and no complaints.
One benefit of the stock cans is that they are strong, drop your bike and polish out the scuffs, this doesnt work with after market cans, ever drop your bike?

Put money aside for a can swap and spend it on the forks and back shock, they are crap.

forks are under sprung and over damped, the back shock is the cheapest they could fit, I went with Maxton for the forks and Hagon for the shock.
Before you do that though change the rear suspension linkages to raise the back end, either with different triangles or the "Baines " link from Baines racing, this did more to calm the front end over bumps than I could have hoped for, no more flapping bars and a better turn in, no loss of stability either
Very happy with both.
Stay calm.
Aussiejoe
On the Road
Posts: 228
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by Aussiejoe »

Thanks Pod, that's awesome mate, exactly what I needed to know, I'm very gratefull for your time and effort!!!
Pod Air Filters
So a K&N racing filter, standard airbox, tank raised and a snorkelectomy then?
Carby Kit
This is meant as a rebuild kit, new gaskets and o-ring etc. My bike will cough and stall just off idle sometimes, and it is getting more regular lately. I have read if they sit for a while with fuel in the bowl, it ruins the o-rings, and will develop this cough. My bike sat in the bike shop for 12 months before I bought it and it's always had it. A carby balance I was hoping might sort it out, but it didn't. So while I'm sorting the cough out, may as well do the rest.
Re-jet
Might look at going up that one, here's a good read on rejetting an sv650 engine
http://mickk.net/motorcycle/documents/R ... _Notes.pdf
Exhaust
The left exhaust on my bike has been re-skinned before I bought it, and I have dropped it on the right hand side, just smoothed it off, but the scratches were too deep and have a small hole there now, just need to get a Gas Tungsten Arc Welder and put a small weld on it. I am seriously considering custom made mini trumpets.
Gen 2 cam swap
$270AUD/cam new, but I'll see if I can source some second hand ones.
Ignition advance
Any idea how many degrees you've got by enlarging the pick up holes? Those 4 degree offset keys are know to sheer off, so I was considering a 2 degree custom made one to beef up the midsection so it didn't sheer. I haven't looked, but how hard do you think it would be to make an adaptor plate that bolted to the original holes, and then bolt the pickup to that adaptor plate? I think this is the most important mod, I want low end and mid range horsepower, top end is no use when there's a speed limit. I'd like to go 4 degrees.
2nd/3rd gear ignition retardation
I read somewhere on the 'net it was tested on a dyno, and with that engine it didn't make any difference, so I'm guessing certain models have it, other don't. I'll have a look and see what happens.

Once I get the cough and a few mods done to the engine, I'll be going for cosmetics, I've grown used to the cantankrous and twitchy front end, all part of the fun, and I have a nice, smooth "scratcher's road". The lift kit is of definate interest though!

Thanks again Pod for the reply!!! :thumbsup:
Frankiesan
On the Road
Posts: 109
Joined: 15 years ago
Location: Leeds, West Yorkshire

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by Frankiesan »

I have some questions on the back of all this.

The suspension upgrades you mention, what kinda prices are we talking here for the rear? Also where did you say you got the shock from and the triangles? (links please :-) )

This 2nd gear retard thing, does that really apply to the Carb'd model? If so how do you get around it?

As for new seals and such on the carbs themselves, where can these kits be purchased from?

Thanks all

Pod -Ur a Legend BTW!
weirdo
On the Road
Posts: 594
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Near 'ull - east yorkshire

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by weirdo »

You got mail Frankiesan
To a Raptor....EVERYTHING else is just prey !!

WOOHOO!...TWINS!
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

My ideas for more HP came from trawling a lot on SV forums, first I ruled out a can swap, Ive had noisy bikes all my life up to the Rap, now I dont get Scotlands wildlife running panicking across the road at a throttle blip, neighbours with kids still wave in a friendly style, I kind of like the Stealth element. And its good Stainlees Steel and it says Lafranconi on it which i like the sound of. Downside , heavy, upside it fits well and is strong. Some bolt on cans leave the claw bits hanging in fresh air, looks crap to me.

When "tuning" its best to alter one thing at a time, if you went for your recipe of Airbox mods, jet changes and can/cam swap you would need a big box of jets and a couple of days dyno time to get it running right.

I didnt fancy new High comp pistons , my motor used no oil and I wanted to keep that feature, so Gen 2 cam swap it was, this has no effects on carburation if you leave the rest stock.
Stock is trick in my book.

A lot of the US forums mention carb mods that probably dont apply to the Rap, they had special extra stuff for emissions, needles are different and respond to shimming in the US, I reckon Cagiva fitted the same Euro spec carbs to all the 650 Raps but couldnt say for sure.

One bit you can ditch completely is the PAIR system which causes backfires on the over run, you really need the motor out for this though, it gets rid of a bout 1Kilo of plumbers nonsense .
No HP advantage but looks a lot tidier. http://www.raptorchapter.org.uk/viewtop ... =15&t=1547

K and N filters,
cant see the point I use stock SVs.Maybe if thats all you can get.
Snorkel ectomy, naw, if you look at the work that has gone into designing and manufacturing the air box I dont see how cutting bits off can improve it ( thous may differ), the 650 snorkel leads in from a well crafted bell mouth and aims the incoming air at a cunningly crafted cone tip to minimise turbulence, I would need a lab and a dyno to improve on that.
Manufacturers learned years ago that a well designed airbox was a source of power, some GP two stroke designs started with the air box then had the chassis designed around it.
I dont think Mr Suzuki fitted it to detune the motor.

Lifted tank, naw thats an SV thing, lets out more noise , if it needed it the airfuel curve on the dyno chart would have gone richer as the revs picked up . plus raising the rap tank may cause other clearance issues with bars and such.

"This is meant as a rebuild kit, new gaskets and o-ring etc. My bike will cough and stall just off idle sometimes, and it is getting more regular lately. I have read if they sit for a while with fuel in the bowl, it ruins the o-rings, and will develop this cough. My bike sat in the bike shop for 12 months before I bought it and it's always had it. A carby balance I was hoping might sort it out, but it didn't. So while I'm sorting the cough out, may as well do the rest. "



Could be water in the fuel, internal condensation from a part empty tank can do this without leaving your bike out in the rain or washing it.
I run my float bowl drains with piped extensions, once a year drain each one into a glass jar and look for blobs.
http://www.raptorchapter.org.uk/viewtop ... =15&t=1548
I would drain your entire fuel system and start with fresh before doing open carb surgery.
You are in Oz, if the fuel had a high Alchohol content this will have evaporated in storage and left goo behind, 2 options, ride the bike a lot with clean fuel it may dissolve out the goo, or strip carbs and clean in an ultrasonic bath.

O rings,
The best thing for ruining O rings is aggressive carb cleaner, I keep that well away from rubber bits.
maybe, Ive had the float bowls on and off without issues, sometimes o rings swell a little with age, the trick for this is to put them in a freezer for an hour before re assembly
2nd hand carbs come up on e bay dead cheap , I got a pair for £20.. not used them for anything apart from learning though..

Ignition advance, I reckon I got about 2 degrees by stretching the mounting holes of the pickup plate, a simple mod if you have a dremel and a steady hand, one of the holes ends up as an open ended slot, dont know about a separate adaptor, it may dilute the pick-up signal with the offset caused by the thickness of the adaptor.

This is an easy job and takes an hour or so, bike on paddock stand, pull LHS genny cover, remove ignition pick up plate , suss engine direction by turning rear wheel forward in gear, engage brain to figure which way advances , from memory the motor rotates the same way as the wheel ie anti clock from LHS so the pickup plate has to move clockwise to advance) extend screw mounting holes into slots in ignition plate as far as poss till one breaks out the end of the plate, refit plate with a spot of loctite on each screw at slot extremity, refit gen cover, you can always put this back the way you found it if you dont like it. A lot less hassle and expense than pulling the rotor to fit an offset key.
The offset woodruff key could open up a world of sorrow when trying to do valve timing.

Cam swap, Im in the sticks in the UK and found buying from the USA was easiest, not that cheap , but HP nearly always costs something. ( from old posts 8 BHP gain for £250)
If there are breakers handy then a dead injected Sv would be a suitable donor.
Heres a linky info, not the one I used which I cant find now,( have it printed off in the shed)
http://www.twfracing.com/vbforums/showt ... gen-engine

Suspension mods have been gone over a lot here.
Summarizing. Front end I used Maxton (UK) cost around £400, gives me adjustable rebound by a screw in the top nuts.
Others have replaced the damper guts with others type R1 from memory. Do a search on this site loads of info.

Cheapest is to change the oil for a thinner rating but it doesnt get rid of all issues.

Rear end, Hagon Monoshock about £300, I dont fancy taking a chance on some other 2nd hand shock but others have had good results. Hagon do a rebuild of there own units for £100.


Rear geometry, someone on Ebay offers triangles which lift the rear and pin down the front. Says 1000 here, 650 is the same.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cagiva-Raptor ... 35b6c98fe5
This is good value for the amount of result it gives , anyone that like to scratch on B road twisties needs this sort of mod, I have a "Baines limk" from baines racing in the UK, it was twice the price , does the same thing and was hands down the best £100 i ever spent on the bike.
Last edited by pod on |March 2nd, 2012|, 7:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
Stay calm.
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

"Any idea how many degrees you've got by enlarging the pick up holes? Those 4 degree offset keys are know to sheer off, so I was considering a 2 degree custom made one to beef up the midsection so it didn't sheer. I haven't looked, but how hard do you think it would be to make an adaptor plate that bolted to the original holes, and then bolt the pickup to that adaptor plate? I think this is the most important mod, I want low end and mid range horsepower, top end is no use when there's a speed limit. I'd like to go 4 degrees."

The short stroke 8 valve V twin all plain bearing motor is never going to have a lot of low end stomp, expecting and trying to use grunt sub 3K will cause heavy crank wear.
A bit more advance is a proven help but does rely on good quality 93 octane or better fuel, stock timing was made for very poor 80 ish octane fuel.
The real answer is a longer stroke crank 750, this is on my wishlist, it will probably stay on though, it would be cheaper to but a 1,000 Rap.

I really believe the trick to improving the 650 is to start with the handling, Ive been on a few runs with mates on litre plus bikes who were stunned by the Raps abilities in the twisties.

From most to least bang for your buck.

ignition advance , free as long as you dont tear any gaskets.

PAIR removal, sheds weight, free, a lot of shop time though.

lower Renthal bars £30

Rear end geometry, £50, a massive improvement in front end stability , no more head-shaking on uphill bumps when accelerating.

Front flyscreen , £40, less fatigue at speed.

new rear shock , the stock one is crap, £50 -5000, Hagon does it for me at £300, no more pogoing 2 up.

Front end , springs and dampers, £400, no more washboard dirling on poor surfaces.

brakes, new rear disc, the originals crack, Brembo radial master cylinder "£150 with switch adaptor" for front, more feel.

Lighter wheels, Dymags 2nd hand £900, lovely, easy to clean and so trick, fitted over a winter lay up so couldnt tell any immediate difference!, seems nippier maybe.
but so nice, gold 3 spoke carbon rims, ooh.http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/pict1637.jpg/
Last edited by pod on |March 2nd, 2012|, 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Stay calm.
User avatar
vassilis67
On the Road
Posts: 251
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: Thessaloniki. Greece

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by vassilis67 »

Take a look at this...kit motore sv...i am thinking about it.



http://www.rosmoto.it/index.php?page=pr ... motore.php
It's all greek to me....
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

Big bore kits make more power for sure, the filters and stuff are just to maximise profit In my opinion.

JHS in the UKl offer similar stuff, upgraded head bolts barrels pistons head flowing for 750cc. cranks etc
http://www.jhsracing.co.uk/mini_twins.htm

the stock 650 crank is only safe up to around 85 HP, these kits get very close, I favour the longer stroke Falicon crank option.
Stay calm.
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

Found this cool link for people changing cans and carb jetting on SV650.
http://mickk.net/motorcycle/documents/R ... _Notes.pdf
Stay calm.
User avatar
dizzyblonde
On the Road
Posts: 1039
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: West Yorkshire
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by dizzyblonde »

Very interesting read Pod.

I always thought the Rap650 was FI.

My 2001 SV had the main jets drilled bigger by Holeshot racing. Shes run with these jets, a shortened race Art can and a butchered air filter. The air filter has the snorkel chopped out, big hole in the top. She can't run without this though, if you put a straight standard one in, she runs like a bag o poo!

Theres an awful lot of Sv folk on the other forum who do these mods daily. No idea how different a Raptor is tbh.....can't be that much!

I'm not overly sure how much BHP it gives you, in fact I'm certain it gives you very little, just a lot of snort, and a bit more pull. There have been people to go with the JHS bore kits, but not many. The SV can be borred out to 750, but IIRC the results aren't overly impressive.
Yellow 2001 SV650s,2002 VRaptor
Your Rapter looks like a sci fi robot dragon! and it breaths fire too! It singed my eye brows and boiled my eyes at the lights! smudge
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

Hi DB , did we meet at Ballachulish ( Bacon rolls and such before the Kinlochleven loop) on the SV run about 3 years ago?
The 650 Rap evolution follows the SV650 from curvy to pointy,
early Raps like mine were carbed ( curvy SV). Later got FI and oil coolers (pointy SV).
Yup theres masses of stuff on pipes and jets on the SV forums
Getting too old for that , did it all as a kid with my BSA lightning , went through the whole mega phone Dunstall Decibel ,Gutless Goldie ,2 into one, thing, Carbs with velocity stack bell mouths and all sorts, that why I havent bothered with the Rap, with very few exceptions most motorcycles will run best on stock gear, most start running a load worse when air boxes come off ( LCs with K and Ns, yeuch). Its funny now that these old "classics" are mostly all turned back to stock, no one wants them with the go faster bits like empty megas and bell mouths.
My Beesa still runs with shorty bell mouths , and no air filters , something I regret every time I have to fit new piston rings, the pipes are back to completely stock after about 7 iterations of "improvements". The stock airbox arrangement will go back on one day when I can gather all the right bits.
Ive been snapping up the stock Rap stuff like cans and such while people are still going through the noisy can curve. every cloud has a silver lining. Got a spare pair of stock cans for £50, crashtastic. The stock exhaust on a 650 Raptor is a Stainless work of art, 2 cleverly laid out headers with the rear curved to equalise length, linked for max breathing, passing into diverging tapers for a megaphone effect, angled to the main high volume silencers made to fit the exact lines of the bike, passing out through a small stub which doesnt gather water, if it was the other way around and this was an aftermarket bolt on goody punters would pay a wedge for a custom fitted stainless system.

Real HP comes from heads , cams , cubes and comp ratio or supercharging, fannying with the pipes and inlets is for idle amusement. The Suzuki twin swirl 4 v/v head is hard to improve on , cams are a fairly easy swap, big bores cost a load, and Higher comp than stock ( which is already a stratospheric 11:1 ) brings serious trouble if top octane fuel isnt used. Supercharging is whole different game.
Great if you have the Dyno time and a scientific approach, there are small gains to be had, usually at the expense of fuel consumption or right at the top end of the rev range where it never gets used. My bike still does nearly 60 mpg if I dont go mental, with a 19 litre tank thats over 200 miles between fills, very good , not many other 650s get close to this range, and it makes a few more ponies, wins all round.
Most folks would get more HP gain from fitting a chain oiler than a louder pipe.


Dyno operators can be unscrupulous, if they tune your motor you will always see a gain, they can manipulate figures very easily.
Or am I being too cynical?
Stay calm.
User avatar
dizzyblonde
On the Road
Posts: 1039
Joined: 14 years ago
Location: West Yorkshire
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by dizzyblonde »

Yes, that be me, and on Facebook :D
I think, I had my black SV on that particular run, the following year I did it on the yellow one. Yet to get the VRap up there :(
Was just talking about the JHS cam swap this morning funnily enough. The replacement engine I put in my SV had them in, but my oily friend nicked them and put the standards back in, when he did the job!

Not on your own with being a cynical mind, I am far too that way inclined for my own good :P
Yellow 2001 SV650s,2002 VRaptor
Your Rapter looks like a sci fi robot dragon! and it breaths fire too! It singed my eye brows and boiled my eyes at the lights! smudge
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

Dug out the dyno run after the cam swap, stock 137.5 mains
Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Stay calm.
pod
On the Road
Posts: 343
Joined: 21 years ago

Re: Engine Modifications done by Cagiva

Post by pod »

"The left exhaust on my bike has been re-skinned before I bought it, and I have dropped it on the right hand side, just smoothed it off, but the scratches were too deep and have a small hole there now, just need to get a Gas Tungsten Arc Welder and put a small weld on it. I am seriously considering custom made mini trumpets."

I missed this part , sorry,
IMO TIG weld the scars and buff out, thats hard earned patina, check the RHS frame tab, mine broke after a dunt like that.

The bad part of me says cut off at the cones and go for reverse cone megas, Dunstall taper.
But Ive got over it now,Your mileage may vary,
Stay calm.
Post Reply