ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Technical stuff specific to the V and Xtra raptors
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dueruote
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ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by dueruote »

Hi guys,

My 2005 Xtra-Raptor 1000 works pretty well in the country roads, but it doesn't in the city.
The main reason is the on/off effect. It means the hit you receive when you turn the throttle after having released it.
The issue appears on two different situation.

FIRST

The first issue appears every time you release the throttle and then you turn it again. The defect is not related to RPM. It's a small problema. I've to admit it. I owned 2002 Aprila RSV1000 in the past and also a 2000 Ducati Monster 900S. The Suzuki engine is easy compared to them. By the way... I see no reason to avoid improving the situation if possible. Any solution ?
Would the PAIR removal improve the engine response ?
I'm not interested in having more power and I usually keep the engine below 5000 RPM. I want only a smoother response. I can accept that situation anyway. It's really a minor issue.

SECOND

The secon issue appears every time i increase the gear using the clutch. The defect seems not to be present when you decrease the geat (e.g. from third to second). This defect is really not acceptable. It's always present. I'd say 90% of the time I use the clutch to change the gear. It's not always the same behaviour. Many times it looks like the first issue (see above), but it's really more detectable and annoying compared to it.
The worst case appear about 30% of the times I change the gear and it looks really like a ECM bug or something similar. The engine stuck for a very short moment when I try to accelerate after changing the gear and then it starts again with a power twice than usual. It's really annoying and it's also not easy to control the bike on heavy traffic condition.

I thought the second defect was due to the cut-off system (no fuel when throttle is released) and so I started investigating on how to disable it. I tried to false the clutch switch by short-circuiting it. The defect completely disappeared and also the first issue decreased, but awfully I faced lacks of power from 4000 RPM to 6000 RPM. It was really like the bike was about to turn off, so I discarded that solution.
The test helped me understanding a different map is loaded on the ECM when the clutch lever is pulled. I had a confirm about that from a GSX-R forum. I understood the second issue was probably due to the different map and it has got nothing to do with the cut-off system.
I turned on the bike and then I simply disconnected the clutch witch plug (always open).

Miracle !

The second defect completely (100%) disappeared. I rode for 20Km (city traffic included) without any issue when changing the gear. Only the first issue (see above) is still present, but I can absolutely accept it. It's part of a big twin engine.

Did anybody face the same issue ?
Did anybody try the same solution ?
Do you see any possible side-effect for that solution ?

I'll create a patch to enable the clutch switch only when the start button is pressed and then it will be disabled automatically (always open).

Thanks everyone !
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V4mp
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by V4mp »

TL engine is one of the first fuel injected motorcycle engines. Fueling is pretty rough, throttle needs precise hand. 8)

These things might improve riding quality:
1. Check/adjust throttle cables
2. TPS CHECK
3. Monitor coolant temp. If I remember right when coolant temp reaches 82deg ECU switches to "hot map". Hot map is way smoother. ;)
4. Blackbox which cheats ECU to use hot map
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
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dueruote
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by dueruote »

1- Already done.
2- Already done.
3- Yes, I know about it.
4- I'll do it on my own. I'm pretty good with electronic parts and soldering. I can create something with 1-2 Euro. I'll also create an automatic tool to disable clutch switch once the engine is on. It'll cost less than 5 Euro.
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by Crap Tartan »

do a search on here, find the thread "TPS reset" started by me and you will find all the details on how to build a black box and the parts you need.
It also goes through doing the TPS setting up and the engine temperature issues.
It could be just the thing you need to solve your rough running.
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by Lexio62 »

Buy a carby bike!
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dueruote
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by dueruote »

No. I removed the clutch switch (always open contact) and now the bike is simply perfect. It was the ONLY issue. It's simply perfect and it looks also like the fuel consuption is very low. I expect about 20Kms per liter or even more.
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by V4mp »

dueruote wrote:55 years agoNo. I removed the clutch switch (always open contact) and now the bike is simply perfect. It was the ONLY issue. It's simply perfect and it looks also like the fuel consuption is very low. I expect about 20Kms per liter or even more.
Pretty strange problem. :shock:
Don't ride faster than your angels can fly !
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by Crap Tartan »

I agree, if it all starts, runs and everything is now fine with the clutch switch removed then there is something strange going on in your wiring?

Did you leave the wires to the switch open or shorted?
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dueruote
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by dueruote »

Open. It's not strange. It's normal. I found a lot of documentation about that issue on MANY Suzuki models (included GSX-R series). If you look at the electrical scheme, you'll notice the clutch switch contact goes also inside the ECU. This contact is NOT used to turn-on the bike. The turn-on sequence (electric start button + clutch lever pulled) is hardware. The relay coil need power and ground to work (means starting the bike). The power comes from the start button (right commands block), but it's not enough as the current can't flow without grounding on the other side of the coil. The clutch switch provides the ground when the lever is pulled. The bike engine starts.
The ECU is NOT involved in the turn-on procedure, but that's not all !
When you ride a bike is not nice to have the engine stalling and turning off. It can be really dangerous, so Suzuki (also other brands) thought about a way to avoid unwanted issues when you ride with the clutch lever pulled. I suppose they faced issues during tests because of Euro 1 rules. Solution. If you pull the clutch lever, the switch warns the ECU about that and the mapping is modified to avoid issues. Some crazy users on the GSX-R forum also detected the power/torque curve (over RPM) with standard conditions and also letting the ECU thinking the clutch lever was pulled.

Guess what... the two curves are really different.

I tried a first time to false the switch. I short-circuited it. It means ECU always thinks the clutch lever is pulled (like in the GSX-R forum test). The bike was really different !
The ON/OFF effect was absolutely absent and the bike was not a tiger anymore. It was more like a smooth pussy cat. The main issue was the mapping was to rich and I was facing issues around 3-4000 RPM.
I tried a second time cutting the clutch wire to the ECU. It means the bike can turn on (remember... turning on sequence doesn't involve ECU), but the ECU always thinks I'm changing the gear withount pulling the clutch. ECU thinks clutch is never never pulled.
The bike is now simply perfect. I completely cancelled all issues. It works perfercly and it is still a tiger.

I searched on the web and I found the explanation. The defect is present only on few bikes (inlcuded TL1000). It's a combination of many things, but there's no failure. It's just a random calculation (depending on all sensors) from the ECU to create the issue. When you change the gear and you pull the clutch lever, the ECU changes the mapping for an instant. When you release the clutch, the mapping changes once again. This step creates glitches and a sort of "cough" for a moment. It last less than one second, but it's not nice. Cutting the clutch wire to the ECU (not the clutch cable to the coil), the mapping never changes.
There's no risk at all.

End.
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Crap Tartan
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by Crap Tartan »

I see what you mean but wont you always be stuck in either the "starting" map or the top gear map which is great for either end but not both?
The ECM changes maps when it senses the state change from the clutch switch but it will never sense a change state with your method?

I`m not saying it doesnt work for you but am confused as to why? (I am an electronics engineer of over 40 years so do understand these operations)
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by dueruote »

The ECU knows which gear is in. It's a different sensor. The clutch sensor is only used by ECU to enrich the mixture in case the lever is pulled. It's a system used to avoid engine stalling when clutch is used. If the bike is correcly carburated and the idle RPM is correct, the system is useless. The clutch sensor is really not needed if the bike is fine. It helps in case the TPS is not properly set (I checked mine) or the idle speed is too low.
Stop. Nothing else.
I'm also an electronic engineer, so I'm interested in your questions. By the way... I'm not able to catch the point.
What do you mean with starting map ?
The only one mounted on the ECU should be the "so colled" COLD map. The ECU works with a correction factor below 81°C coolant temperature and then HOT map is "loaded" over that temperature.
The only difference between my ECU and others is the fact my one does believe the clutch is never used. All remaining sensors works correcly. I only do not use the map for the "clutch" condition. If the engine doesn't stall when clutch is used, everything is fine.
The bike know you pressed the starting button from a different wire. The "turn on" map works even without clutch sensor.
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dueruote
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by dueruote »

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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by nickst4 »

Hi there,

I admire your technical expertise in surmounting the running issues of your bike. Fortunately, my Raptor1000 behaves perfectly without intervention but, like you, we did find the abrupt throttle response from closed was inconvenient. For my solution, which was purely mechanical, see 'Throttle Response' under the Raptor1000 technical heading. The bike still retains it's tiger character beyond the first few millimeters of throttle opening: job done!

Nick, UK
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by andybaggies »

The clutch sensor is only used by ECU to enrich the mixture in case the lever is pulled. It's a system used to avoid engine stalling when clutch is used. If the bike is correcly carburated and the idle RPM is correct, the system is useless. The clutch sensor is really not needed if the bike is fine. It helps in case the TPS is not properly set (I checked mine) or the idle speed is too low.
Stop. Nothing else.
Interesting - but does the enriching help cold winter starting at freezing air temperatures?
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Re: ON/OFF effect and issue changing gear

Post by ozzraptor »

Its funny how some bikes have these issues and others run fine,i'm only a backyard engineer of sorts, but my bike runs perfect down low where most people have problems, i can putter around a corner under 3k and then throttle on mid corner without getting nervous or any hesitation in the motor. Never had the clutch issue as experienced here or even felt any hesitation changing gears. I fitted Crap Tartans "black box" which eliminates cold start and drive hesitation in cold map , it also has an adjustable resistor so you can adjust to your liking. Get rid of the Air system next best thing to do and map. :thumbsup: see simple :D
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