Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

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nickst4
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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:39 am

Still not quite there yet, but progress is being made. Having realised I made the wrong choice in needle-roller bearings, I now find I've done the same with the outer seals! However, the pair of inner sleeves on a carrier seems to be a winner, rather than waiting for unobtainable OEM items.

Next week I hope to complete the repair and will run through it all here with pics and part numbers. :thumbsup:

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by Trevor68 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:18 am

Photos would be great, just put the new Wilbers shock in mine and not sure I put the triangles back in the right way around, doh!

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:19 am

I hadn't aimed to show the link-plates in situ, but you did notice the little arrows pointing forwards to the chassis? Even so, it's tricky to figure which way to connect the swing-arm and the shock. I must admit I just looked at the Raptor 1000 for guidance, but those are homemade jack-up links on that! Maybe I've got it wrong and that's why the 650 still feels too harsh... :?

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by andybaggies » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:20 pm


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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by Trevor68 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:19 pm

Thanks, I ended up checking the workshop manual and did get it right! I should have known it was good when I had to readjust my mirrors down a bit. I had the wilbers made 3mm longer so 315mm instead of 312.

I also have the stuffed bearings problems, not only that the sides were being chewed out of the triangles, so I reversed them, but also the swingarm seemed not only chewed out, but worn off center!

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:02 am

Phew! I just checked this morning and I did get it right, as per the photo Andy linked to. Looking at the parts graphic that you can find online, you can just about trace the dotted lines too.

Now to write up the shock link bearing repair.... :roll:

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:34 am

OK, here's an account of doing the needle roller repair on the 650 Raptor, and I'd imagine it applies to the 1000 too.

The basic problem appears to be unavailability of these parts, especially the inner sleeves/pins, from Cagiva/MV so you need to source them yourselves or make something up!

To start with, what NOT to do in the way of parts! :shock:
The correct 16x22x16 size needle roller bearings appear to be widely available under the code HK1616 (thanks Joe). Simply-Bearings in the UK has these, but also lists versions (2RS) which include integral seals. We discussed the value of going that route and I now have several of these sealed ones but, as I guessed, the addition of seals at either end of the standard length of cage severely-reduces the needle length. Not good in terms of load-carrying, so I ordered the unsealed ones instead.

Then the outboard seals: these are available from Simply-Bearings in gartered type with rubber encasement or, as per OEM, in metal encasement. I opted for the rubber ones and found that they immediately popped out after pressing them in to the 4mm-long available space! The metal ones are a MUCH more positive fit, so that's what I've got now.

Fitting the needle-rollers to the ends of the dogbone was made much easier by turning a mandrel with a 4mm step at the end. This seats the bearings exactly where they need to be (in touch) and leaves the requisite space for the seals. A large bench vise was what I used to press the bearings and seals in.

I'll stick three pics with this post and address the sleeve issues with the next one, I hope..
Attachments
P1040029 Raptor shock link small.jpg
Note the brass mandrel to push the bearings and then the seals into place.
P1040029 Raptor shock link small.jpg (165.6 KiB) Viewed 271 times
P1040030 Raptor shock link seals small.jpg
The seal on the left is the metal-cased one to use. The rubber-cased one on the right just pops straight out!
P1040030 Raptor shock link seals small.jpg (203.88 KiB) Viewed 271 times
P1040027 Raptor needle rollers small.jpg
On the left you see the standard HK1616 bearing, with the HK16162RS on the right. The sealed one has grease inside as supplied, but note how short the needles are, compared with the other.
P1040027 Raptor needle rollers small.jpg (150.01 KiB) Viewed 271 times
Last edited by nickst4 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:04 am

Part 2:

The inner sleeves/pins for the Raptors are not available from the factory via a UK MV/Cagiva dealer I contacted who took my money but promptly refunded it when they reported the bad news. I still have the OEM parts on order from OEMmotorcycleparts in Holland and they suggest a longer delay on all Cagiva parts compared with other brands, but I've heard nothing yet.

So can we devise an alternative? In my view (and that of my bike Guru Carl Harrison) nothing else is suitable for needle rollers to run on, in terms of the necessary hardness, compared with proper hardened-and-ground steel. The difficulty is that the OEM sleeves are 42mm long and 16mm diameter with a 10mm bore, and no-one I found has these. However, Bearing-Boyz in the UK can supply 16mm diameter in various lengths and I chose one of 20mm and one of 22mm to make up the 42mm needed. The only snag is that they are 12mm bore. You could possibly drill out the shock-link sideplates to 12mm, but I just turned tubular carriers out of brass to fit the bearing sleeves and 10mm bolts very snugly. A bit of Loctite holds them in place, but they are clamped very firmly by the bolts. Not having a continuous 42mm bearing surface is not a problem because the twin needle-rollers are amply supported on this 20/22mm length of sleeve.

That just leaves the bolts. I bought stainless flange-head M10x1.5mm pitch as per the originals and naturally added stainless nyloc nuts. Because I'd had to saw off the bolt holding the link to the chassis and was doubtful about the trapped thread at the other end, I bought a longer socket-head M10x1.5 bolt to run into that thread and with an extra nyloc nut outboard. Using an M10x1.5mm tap, the trapped thread seemed to be OK, but the extra nut is insurance. I had to clean the face of the chassis mount where my diamond-saw (no sparks!!) had bit into it, but a thin stainless washer/spacer got the fit right.

I think that just about covers the repair which was done very economically, apart from the ordering of the wrong parts... :oops:

The bottom line is don't let your Raptor get to the state mine was in, with destroyed and seized bearings! If you just want to do routine service, I commend the above solution. Have fun!
Attachments
P1040025 Raptor bearing sleeves small.jpg
Here you can see the 20/22mm sleeves separate and on the brass carrier, plus one old OEM sleeve, plus the one I had to cut off, still with the length of bolt seized inside
P1040025 Raptor bearing sleeves small.jpg (209.32 KiB) Viewed 271 times
P1040028 Raptor shock link bolts small.jpg
Good-quality flange-head bolts with extra washers, plus the longer hex-socket one to carry an extra nyloc nut outboard of the chassis thread.
P1040028 Raptor shock link bolts small.jpg (212.14 KiB) Viewed 271 times
Last edited by nickst4 on Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by shebee » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:07 am

Thanks for a full and clear howto! :happyhappy:
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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by andybaggies » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:21 am

I also have the stuffed bearings problems, not only that the sides were being chewed out of the triangles, so I reversed them, but also the swingarm seemed not only chewed out, but worn off center!
Trevor, I had exactly the same thing with mine, the triangles sides been chewed which is caused by the swing arm dog bone mount (from which the triangles hang) not lining up with the frame dog bone mount.

After much faffing about & to cut a long story short I shimmed up both sides of the swing arm so the suspension linkages lined up nicely, there was no end float and the spindle could be tightened up. Phew...!

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by andybaggies » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:42 am

Great write up - v.useful :thumbsup:
Not having a continuous 42mm bearing surface is not a problem because the twin needle-rollers are amply supported on this 20/22mm length of sleeve.
From what I recall the pins are a tad longer than the dog bone is wide so the triangles bear against the pins rather than the whole lot been clamped tight.

Is this the case with the 42 mm measurement?

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:50 pm

andybaggies wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:42 am
Not having a continuous 42mm bearing surface is not a problem because the twin needle-rollers are amply supported on this 20/22mm length of sleeve.
From what I recall the pins are a tad longer than the dog bone is wide so the triangles bear against the pins rather than the whole lot been clamped tight.

Is this the case with the 42 mm measurement?
Hi Andy,

Yes, that's the case and I figure the extra length allows the assembly to float a little to align itself. Why they should misalign and bind to one side I don't know, unless one or other of the paired needle-roller bearings had collapsed. Another advantage of the surplus length of the sleeves is that it allowed me to push the dogbone to one side and get the diamond cutter in the gap. I wouldn't wish that job on anyone!

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Re: Suspension link/Dogbone bearings

Post by nickst4 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:20 am

nickst4 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:02 am
Phew! I just checked this morning and I did get it right, as per the photo Andy linked to. Looking at the parts graphic that you can find online, you can just about trace the dotted lines too.
Nick
By the way, if you go the route of altering the ride-height on any bike, do be aware of the change in geometry and what it potentially does to chain tension. If the gap between the chassis and the wheel is increased, the swingarm drops lower and the chain almost certainly becomes slacker. Re-tension it to standard in that position and you risk knocking the gearbox bearings out if you load the bike up or hit a deep pot-hole. :shock:

Nick

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