Winter woes & now not starting

[andybaggies]

Well riding all through winter hasn't done the old boy much good. In the past couple of weeks, now the weather is getting better of course, I'v had to deal with the following:

Rear master cyclinder seizure - which caused the caliper to burts into flames & replaced the MS, caliper & line.
Front wheel bearing failure - luckily had had some spares, oreder when the rear bearing failed, and was a quick bish, bash, bash repair.
Whilst doing the above noticed one of the fork seals is weeping.
Front brakes were close to seizing - 2 hours cleaning the pistons.

All caused, of course, by accumulated crud & salt, bah!

And now to top it off the blighter didn't start this morning. I'd noticed it had been getting more & more sluggish to start so replaced the battery with no real change. One thing I did spot is when I hit the start button the speedo starts working and shows I'm doing 12 mph!

So my options at the moment are:

reg/rec bombing the battery. This is an Electrex World replacement & I have noticed increase/decrease in lighting but not sure if that isn't normal. Battery was showing 13.3 V.
Ignition switch crudded up.
Broken/loose wire earth - oh please no...
Main relay - seems a couple on here have suffered this so is it a common issue and is there any way to check it?

Cheers,

Andy B

[Aussiejoe]

Check and clean your earth strap to the motor, and also the starter motor cable and contact onto the motor.

[andybaggies]

I've only done a visual check of the earth strap (it's in a pig of a position to undo) and it looks to be one of the cleanest on the bike! I've also had the starter motor out and given it a thorough clean inside & out and again that looks good.

Thinking about it overnight I reckon the speedo showing a reading when hitting the starter button is an indication something is amiss. There needs to be voltage on the speedo pickup leads to show a reading which does seem to point to shorted wires leading to a current leakage.

Hoping just a dodgy connector somewhere

[Crap Tartan]

Hey Andy,
Did you replace with a brand new, known good battery?
When you read 13.3V on the battery what was the situation?
Battery is first check, with ignition off you want it sitting about 12.5V
With engine running it should be around 13.5- 14.5V.
With ignition on but not engine the first reading you get should only drop slightly (0.2V max) do this check with no lights on.
Let me know how that goes then we can move forward.

[andybaggies]

Did you replace with a brand new, known good battery?
When you read 13.3V on the battery what was the situation?

Yep, brand new battery from Tayna and the 13.3V reading was definitely when the engine wasn't running and I'm pretty sure it was when still connected but no ignition on. Also I think this was after it had been fully charged the day before.

I left it on charge overnight and will see if it starts in the morrow. Tonight I checked the static current loss as per the manual i.e. connect positive, disconnect earth and measure the current from the negative terminal to the earth strap. Manual recommends less than 1mA and I was seeing 1.8mA entirely due to the starter relay which doesn't strike me as too bad.

At the risk of jumping too far ahead I'm still puzzled by the speedo displaying 12 mph when hitting the starter button (will check this again in the morrow) and the previous intermittent voltage surging seen with brighter lights (& warmer electric gloves mmm nice!). With the latter being the reason I replaced the battery which did seem to resolve it but started the electrical sluggishness and hence thinking the reg/rec which if it does start I can check as per your suggestion.

Thanks for your time CT, much appreciated.

Andy B

[Crap Tartan]

That reading of 13.3V sounds a little high for a connected battery with ignition off?
Was it measured just after you finished charging the battery and was still dropping down to normal?
Is your meter you use accurate and in good fettle?
Did you take a reading with the engine running?
The speedo reading initially makes me think iffy battery/charging system as this can cause havoc with the electronics (ECM) which is where the instrument stuff is fed from.
The raptor charging system is only just man enough for the bike standard and when you take winter use into account and electric gloves then its all pushing it a bit!!
I have changed practically everything to LED on my Raptor as with the sidecar load too it needs a reduction of load or I am going to keep fekkin up batteries and eventually the charging circuit as I have tested that extensively on mine and its performance is below spec already so its slowly on its way out.

[andybaggies]

Well progress of sorts. Tried to start it this morning and no luck with the main relay chattering after half a dozen prods. Mmmm sounds like lack of current from the battery so lets pop him out for another charge whilts I use the old one. And wouldn't you know it the battery was swollen - overcharged & dodgy reg/rec methinks.

Presently charging up the old battery and will see if he fires up with that.

That reading of 13.3V sounds a little high for a connected battery with ignition off?
Was it measured just after you finished charging the battery and was still dropping down to normal?
Is your meter you use accurate and in good fettle?
Did you take a reading with the engine running?

See above and yes it was just after charging but we now know its buggered. The meter is a decent £20 model and only a couple of months old so I reckon it has accurate readings. Haven't 'kin started him yet.

The speedo reading initially makes me think iffy battery/charging system as this can cause havoc with the electronics (ECM) which is where the instrument stuff is fed from.

Reckon you're right here - again see above.

The raptor charging system is only just man enough for the bike standard and when you take winter use into account and electric gloves then its all pushing it a bit!! I have changed practically everything to LED on my Raptor as with the sidecar load too it needs a reduction of load or I am going to keep fekkin up batteries and eventually the charging circuit as I have tested that extensively on mine and its performance is below spec already so its slowly on its way out.

And again see above! So I reckon it didn't start because the battery was buggered and all I now need to figure out was it because the rec/reg had overcharged it. Can't think what else it could be mind. I did a diode test on it as per G11 in the manual and all the readings were higher than spec i.e. 0.76 & 0.63 as against 0.6.

But would I be correct in thinking this only checks the rectifier and not the regulator?

Cheers,

Andy B

[andybaggies]

News flash... Hurrah ! using the recharged old battery he only went & fired up as soon as I touched the starter button

So, it didn't start because the new battery was toast and I'm pretty sure it was toast because the regulator allowed it to be over charged. Not going to run it until a new reg/rec is fitted and hopefully just in time for the MoT on Thursday. Phew.

Lesson to be learnt is don't jump to ludicrous conclusions until you've checked the bleeding obvious.

And many thanks CT for bouncing ideas off you and for keeping me grounded & on the straight & narrow. Top man

Andy B

[Crap Tartan]

No worries Andy, glad to help in any little way I can.

So now its started, whats the voltage reading you get on the battery? ignition off/ignition on/ engine running at 3k revs?
There are lots of checks other than the diode checks of the generator, they are listed in the book.
What is most important for the rectifier is that the output from the generator is pretty balanced, check the no load voltage is over 70V AC between all three pair of wires and not hugely differant.
You mentioned you recently put on a new Reg/rec?
If this was always shit then it may have took a bit of time for it to fekk your battery and show up the problem. also the new battery doesnt sound like it was right either?
Also the current drain with ignition off is a bit high, check it again and one by one isolate each sytem, lights/horn/gloves etc until it becomes obvious which one is draining your battery.

Best of luck!

[andybaggies]

So now its started, whats the voltage reading you get on the battery? ignition off/ignition on/ engine running at 3k revs?

13.1 ignition off (freshly charged), 12.4 (ish) ignition on & 14.5 engine running @ 2k. Didn't want to rev the engine to much just in case the reg/rec blew another battery.

What is most important for the rectifier is that the output from the generator is pretty balanced, check the no load voltage is over 70V AC between all three pair of wires and not hugely different.
You mentioned you recently put on a new Reg/rec?

That's a good suggestion & I'll do that tomorrow. I replaced the reg/rec in July 2015 so it is about 16k miles old and I'm pretty sure it's the guilty party so have already ordered another.

If this was always shit then it may have took a bit of time for it to fekk your battery and show up the problem. also the new battery doesnt sound like it was right either?

At the start of the year I noticed voltage surges with the lights getting noticeably brighter (& gloves hotter) and thought it might be the reg/rec but went for the cheaper option of a new battery. This did seem make things a little better but I reckon this time the reg/rec (perhaps got worse and) just burnt the battery out.

Also the current drain with ignition off is a bit high, check it again and one by one isolate each sytem, lights/horn/gloves etc until it becomes obvious which one is draining your battery.

Another good idea and as mentioned previously disconnecting the main starter motor relay dropped all of the current drain. Can't believe it's the gloves as this is just a pair connected across the battery via a 3A fuse. I do have a 'modulator' that sparkles my mini LED DRLs (1.5w for the pair) that is fed off the side light. This may be buggering things up.

Cheers,

Andy B